Dec 13, 2019
Show Notes:
Speaker 1: (00:00)
Hey everybody, what's going on? Dr. Chad Woolner here and Dr. Buddy
Allen. And this is episode 42 of the health fundamentals podcast.
And on today's episode, we're going to be talking PRP and
regenerative medicine with dr Robin devel. So let's get
started.
Speaker 2: (00:15)
You're listening to the health fundamentals podcast. I'm Dr Chad
Woolner and I'm dr buddy Allen. And this show was about giving you
the simple but powerful cutting edge tools you need to change your
health and your life. So sit back and enjoy the show as we show you
the path to your best life down to a science.
Speaker 1: (00:34)
So on today's episode we have our special guest, none other than dr
Robin devel. Dr Robin devel is amazing for a number of reasons, but
first and foremost, she is our medical director and nurse
practitioner at align integrated medical. And so I'm quite frankly,
I'm surprised it's taken us this long to have you on the podcast.
So thanks for being here with us. Thanks for having me. Yeah. So,
um, we're really excited to dive into this topic. You know, we, one
of our first episodes of the podcast, we talked a little bit about
STEM cell therapy. Um, but um, we're excited because now we can
dive a little bit deeper into some of the other realms of
regenerative medicine, some of the things we do with the clinic,
but then also diving a little bit deeper into your experience. Um,
dr Robin, I don't want to steal her thunder, I'll let her kind of
go into it, but she's got a really diverse background, uh, in terms
of her clinical experience. And uh, and so I guess a good maybe
starting place for us is kind of maybe give them a kind of a quick
snapshot of your, your whole experience, kind of what got you into
where you're at today, what, what got you where you're at
today?
Speaker 3: (01:39)
Sure. Well, I started out as a chiropractor and after a while I
realized there's a lot more people I want to be able to reach with
holistic medicine and lifestyle changes. And so after being in
practice about five or six years, I decided to go back to be a
nurse practitioner. And when I got out, I had this fantastic
opportunity to work in a clinic for st Luke's. And so most recently
I've been working in wound wound care and I've worked at, uh, acute
care hospitals as well, working with really, really sick people. So
I went from working with generally really, really healthy people to
the S really other end of the spectrum. Yeah, exactly. And so, um,
I've gotten to see a lot of, a lot of the spectrum of how people
are in their healthcare.
Speaker 1: (02:28)
Right? So you've seen, you know, the best of the best, the worst of
the worst and pretty much everything in between. Yeah. Um, and, and
that's what's really interesting, you know, is that what Robin has
brought to our team, uh, has been, uh, an incredible amount of
experience. Um, because so much of what she sees and learns in her
experience has direct application, if for no other reason than to
help serve as a warning signal to people in terms of like, this is
where things go when you don't take care of. Because, you know, we
were talking just before the podcast, a significant number
percentage of the people that you deal with are people where it's
chronic conditions brought about as a result of lifestyle choices.
You know?
Speaker 3: (03:11)
That's exactly right. As a matter of fact, I get people from time
to time in my clinic who have literally 10 to 15 large significant
comorbidities I've talking to heart disease and kidney disease and
diabetes, and they've gotten so far down the spectrum and then they
hear these commercials about, Oh, tumeric is a great thing and
it'll help inflammation, right? And so they go off, they go to some
store and they buy a bottle of American. They think that they're,
everything's going to be cured and they can get off their
medications. And you know, so there's this spectrum where we have
to help people, but sometimes people go a little too far, the
illness spectrum, and it's hard to get them back.
Speaker 1: (03:50)
Right. And it's interesting that you bring up that example, you
know, because I think to a large extent, that's what's happened
either intentionally or unintentionally with the world of
regenerative medicine. You know, that that's, it's become this very
popular, uh, concept and idea that I think a lot of people have,
have clung to and have maybe, perhaps incorrectly viewed as this
savior of, of this thing that will, uh, basically undo decades of
self-abuse basically of, of poor lifestyle choices that I can just
do that one magic bullet. And that's gonna undo all that and it's
going to, it's going to fix everything. And I think that has been a
huge disservice, uh, to people because I think it's, it's served as
a very loud and clear wake up call to them, yet again that, that,
that's, that's not what regenerative medicine is really all
about.
Speaker 1: (04:43)
In spite of the fact that some clever marketers have, have
positioned it that way, that it's this magic bullet that all you
need to do is just get this one injection. And then regenerative
medicine is amazing. But one of, I'll never forget a story and I'm
pretty sure it was, it was in college that I had heard it. Um, you
know, people have this, we have this crazy trust that if something
goes wrong, my doc's gonna fix it. Right. And there was a, there
was a, I believe it was an instructor, he was saying, my dad, he
was talking about his own father. Um, he said he drank a ton, he
smoked and, and here I am, uh, getting out of chiropractic school
saying, you got to stop this, it's going to kill you. It's bad.
Right. And his, his dad was like, whatever. He says, if I have a
heart attack, he's like, I'll just, you know, have heart surgery
and I'll be fine. And literally the exact thing happens, right. His
dad, you know, 10 years down the road has this massive heart attack
and his life is completely changed. Yeah. They did do heart surgery
and they did fix it, but he was not even close. And he was, and he
came back to his son and he's like, I can't even tell you how bad I
wish I would have listened because here I thought that, yeah,
they're just going to do surgery and fix it. You know? So what my
back blows
Speaker 3: (05:58)
out. Yeah. They'll just do a surgery and fix it. Right. And, and,
and again, I think there is this, um, incorrect, uh, belief that,
you know, it's like, yeah, if something's wrong, I can go have
surgery and my shoulder can get put back together. But guess what?
You know what if we can, if you have a little bit of an injury and
we do do regenerative medicine, we can fix those things before they
ever become this horrible thing where now, Oh, the only option is
we've got to replace your entire joint. And it's almost become
cliche. The phrase, uh, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of
cure. And I think it's even more than that. I think an ounce of
prevention is probably worth 10 tons of cure. Um, right. But it's
true. It is true. And I think when you look at somebody who does
regenerative, uh, functional medicine, you really have to make sure
they're not practicing exactly like a doctor would.
Speaker 3: (06:49)
But on the other end of the spectrum, because I've heard people and
had people come to me that say, yeah, I went to this function
medicine doctor and they told me I just need to be on this
supplement for the rest of my life and I cure everything. Well,
that's no different than a medical doctor prescribing something
that's prescription. It's the same thing. So you really do, there
is some personal responsibility that needs to happen. You really do
have to start taking care of yourself as a patient and um, and look
at the entire spectrum of your life, not just the, the supplement
panacea or the prescription pill panacea. Right. And it's
interesting you bring that up. I think that's a good segue into,
when you look at from a mile up, let's just say, when you look at
all the best evidence regarding regenerative medicine, whether
we're talking STEM cell therapy, uh, PRP, platelet rich plasma or
amniotic products or things like that, most all the research in
general says these things work great, but they work the best when
it, when part of a complete picture, instead of it being, you know,
this just do this thing and it magically, it's just going to fix
everything.
Speaker 3: (07:51)
But rather they say, and this is the way we've always tried to
describe it to our patients, is, uh, you know, it's a catalyst.
That's what it should be viewed as. This is an opportunity. It's,
it, it provides a window of opportunity for us to then really begin
kind of an unwinding, the, the, uh, the, the ball of thread, so to
speak, over the years. So, uh, in terms of PRP, for those who are
listening or watching, um, can you kind of describe maybe in
layman's terms what's the, let's start with PRP and then maybe the
difference between that and say STEM cell therapy and or amniotic
therapies. So PRP is platelet rich plasma. And so what that means
is they take a person's blood, they spin it down in a centrifuge,
and that separates the red blood cells at the bottom and white
blood cells with, from the plasma at the top.
Speaker 3: (08:43)
And the plasma at the top is rich in protein. And so you're just
using that top portion of the protein. And when you use that in the
body, it attracts your body's own STEM cells. It helps modulate
inflammation. Um, it kind of acts as a, as, um, it will attract
your body's own STEM cells and ability to heal, right? So it's a
catalyst. When you look at amnionic products, that is something
from outside your body that is derived from, uh, scheduled
C-sections. It's processed down, and then it's made into a form
that you can either inject or topically apply to a wound. And, and
they refer to those again as STEM cell magnets, right? Where it's
injected into the area. It attracts your body's own kind of, it
kind of begins the healing cascade, you know, where all of a sudden
the body starts to heal itself.
Speaker 3: (09:36)
And then lastly, STEM cells, STEM cells in this house, which are
the actual STEM cells and they are used in the same way and they,
they generate into whatever STEM cells your body needs. And that's
based on all the different signaling molecules and growth factors
that your, your body's cells produce. And it tells them what kind
of salvation become. Yeah. And in terms of STEM cells, there's been
kind of this ongoing debate for a while in terms of which is best,
what they call autologous STEM cells, which is your body's own STEM
cells. You extract them and then process them and then re-inject
them in or STEM cells that are derived from, uh, uh, is it, is it,
uh, um, umbilical cord STEM cells, cord STEM cells, cord blood,
things like that. Right. Um, any updates on that in terms of the,
the debate where that's at?
Speaker 3: (10:26)
Well you've heard, so I'm still hearing, well, if they're frozen or
if they're alive, there's problems with counting them. So how do
you know how many STEM cells are getting? Um, I, I S they're still
super expensive. There's cord banks all over the place that are
pitching their products as the best. And honestly, there's, I
haven't done enough research to know exactly what's the best and
whatever, but I just know there's so many competing companies out
there that I would be super careful. You're not getting any of
them. We, uh, I think we do a pretty good job at our clinic of
trying to stay on top of the research and trying to sift through
what's just really good marketing and looks and sounds good. Um,
and so for us, you know, and that, and that's, I think something
that I hope those watching or listening can kind of clean too, is
that when you come into our clinic, we don't have a set agenda.
Speaker 3: (11:21)
You know, from a financial standpoint, it would make perfect sense
for us that everybody coming through, we're just going to pitch
STEM cell because that's the most expensive. And we're going to
make the most money that way. But that's not what we do. Instead, I
think to the contrary, typically we focus a little bit more on let,
let's, let's start at the lowest end, see what that does, see if we
can get, just get you better that way. The, the, uh, the most
affordable option, you know, and then move from there. But, but
again, it just depends on everybody's situation, you know? But I
think also one of the important things that I like about working
with you guys is that there is such an emphasis on we have to fix
the core of the problem. Yes. So if the door hinges off and you're
still creating that grinding on the floor, it doesn't matter how
many times you replaced the floor, it's going to come back.
Speaker 3: (12:04)
You've got to fix the hinge, right? Yep. Or even put WD 40 on the
hands, you know what I mean? At the end of the day. And that was
the thing that was kind of the precursor to a lot of the um, uh,
regenerative medicine products was, uh, the highly ironic acid
products, which is basically a joint lubricant for lack of a better
way of, of putting it. And that showed some pretty promising
results at the beginning. And I think to a certain extent can be
helpful in that it helps by some time. Um, but, but the, what you
just brought up, there is such a critical piece of the puzzle that
we try and help people understand. And that leads to a really good
question that we can kind of talk about is one of the most common
questions that people are going to ask with this is what can I
expect in terms of how quickly will I see results?
Speaker 3: (12:47)
So let's talk about that. And then the second follow up question to
that is how long is it going to last? You know, so let's start
first with the first question. You know, if somebody comes into you
tomorrow, we find that they're a good candidate. You say, yeah,
you're going to be a good candidate for PRP or amniotic or
whatever. What can I expect in terms of how soon can I see results?
Well, that is partly individual. So it depends on how a person
heals overall in general, what their general health picture is.
Because even medications that they're on for other things may
interfere or other health conditions like hyperthyroid or whatever
may interfere. But in general, you've got to expect that your body
has to produce these cells and that doesn't happen overnight.
Right? So, you know, it may take a few weeks to even begin to
notice anything and then maybe a month or more to start really
feeling like there's a difference.
Speaker 3: (13:35)
And at first people may be actually be more sore than they, right?
They feel sore first cause there's something happening and then
they start to feel better. Um, how long it lasts depends on how
well you fix the underlying problem and how much you work on it. So
whenever you have a joint problem, you have an imbalance problem
and all the muscles surrounding the joint. And, um, and maybe
there's problems up there or down the spine. Um, so how well you
address those and really balance out the muscles and do some
physical therapy that's gonna determine how long the relief lasts.
You know, our experience at our clinic has been pretty cool because
we've seen, you know, I would say on average, uh, the cases that
we've worked with within a few weeks, we see pretty significant
changes. That was the case with one of our patients, Jim, who came
in. He had a bilateral knee problems, pretty significant wear and
tear on his knees. Um, he did, uh, the amniotic injections and did
phenomenal on, well, he did wonderfully well, but, but his first
week he was, he was in a world of hurt. You know, he was just like,
man, it really flared up. But that was a good sign. That was, that
was a sign that the body's beginning, that inflammatory process to
begin that, the healing processes. So, uh, so he, he did, he did
quite well with that within, uh, within a few short weeks.
Speaker 1: (14:52)
But, but then the other part of that that you talked about, you
know, let's just use as just a hypothetical example. Let's say
somebody who is significantly overweight, which is perhaps one of
the single greatest risk factors for degeneration of the knees,
right? They say that, you know, for every 10 pounds overweight, you
aren't, it puts a significant, I don't remember the figures, do you
remember what the numbers were? But I mean, it just puts a ton of
ton of force on the knees, right? So let's say they come in and
they do this, what can they expect in terms of the longterm
results? Well, probably not that great if you're not willing to
lose some of that weight or all of that weight, you know, um,
because you're still gonna have the same stressors that brought you
there in the first place, then I think that's the biggest
thing.
Speaker 1: (15:33)
You know, we were talking about this before we even started is, you
know, the problems that we see that, that are, um, that respond
well to regenerative medicine are typically chronic degenerative
problems in nature. And if that's the case, chronic degenerative
problems don't just spontaneously happen. Um, they'd been, they'd
been building over years and years and years. And so this, this
idea that, that, and these are problems that need to be addressed.
Like you said, you know, if we're, if we're going to really, really
fix these issues and so we need to, we need to set correct and
realistic expectations. Now that being said, it almost might feel
like here amongst this conversation here that we're downplaying
these things and that's not that anything but that we want people
to understand. These are really powerful, powerful tools that we
have available to us, um, at this day and age.
Speaker 1: (16:26)
But, uh, it would be a shame and we'd lose out on a huge
opportunity there and maximize that opportunity if we didn't fully
address, you know, those underlying issues. Well, you know, one of
the things about regenerative medicine that is so beautiful is the
fact that it's very natural. All right. You know, there are a lot
of things that have been done in medicine for a long time.
Different surgeries. I mean, uh, for, for instance, they used to
bad sprains. They would cast your ankle for six weeks, you know,
they would immobilize it or rice it or I would, there's different
things that we thought at the time were the correct things to do or
um, going in and cleaning up the, the arthritis in the knee, you
know, there's tons of surgery or, uh, studies that say that, that's
terrible. Like it, the results are worse by going in and cleaning
it up.
Speaker 1: (17:15)
Then actually just leaving it alone so well and they used to just
straight up remove the meniscus in the knee. It's just like, let's
get rid of it. Let's look preemptively. These, these are like new
opportunities to correct something in a very natural way without
having to go to the, the extremes of surgery. Because the thing was
surgery and the thing with a lot of these metal medications are,
the dangerous thing about him is sometimes there's a point of no
return. Like once you've cut into those tissues and created more
scar tissue, there's no going back. If you fuse a joint, that joint
is
Speaker 3: (17:50)
fused forever. But if we can, if we can get these regenerative
therapies in soon enough and do the correct rehab and the correct
strengthening and, and really kind of work this man, you could, you
could really erase a lot of damage that you've done over the course
of decades. Yeah, and I could just tell you from all my experience
of treating people who've had surgeries and actually being in on
some surgeries, there is no way I would ever have a surgery on my
knee unless I literally, it was, I was dying and it absolutely had
happened. I mean, there's, there's just no way. And um, certainly I
would never do anything like that without having conservative
therapy first because you're right, once you go the surgery route,
um, and it's, sometimes that is the option, but once you go that
route, when that's not the only option, you can't undo that.
Speaker 3: (18:43)
And so sometimes the best treatment for somebody, maybe it is a
chronic problem that has been there for a years and you can't
absolutely fix the underlying problem. You may at least be able to
do a maintenance and keep it from getting worse or at least slow
down the progression of some disease. Right. So, um, I think even
if you can't 100% fix the underlying issue, a lot of times you can
get people relief and um, and help them by just slowing down the
process. No, that's huge. And the thing I would like maybe it kind
of be in, in kind of closing here to, to really, uh, hone in on is
the experience that you've had, uh, working with, uh, the, a lot of
wound patients and things like that has really shown you, you know,
kind of the, the dark side of it is the fact that this is what
happens when you don't take care of, of, of things.
Speaker 3: (19:35)
But I would see the flip side that you've seen as well that can
really, I think this will pull in on a positive note, is the
miraculous nature of the body's ability to heal itself. You've seen
some pretty miraculous things as well by a combination of using
some of these regenerative technologies as well as some and as well
as just the body's own innate capability of being able to, uh, be,
be a regenerative in nature itself. Right. Even in some of these
people that I've talked about that have multiple comorbidities that
are very serious and they may have gone through a back surgery or
may have been hospitalized for a long time and have deep, uh,
pressure ulcers, I've seen pressure also is where I'm looking
literally at the bone. I've seen back surgeries that have failed
and I'm literally looking at the hardware attached to the bone in
the spine and I will tell you it was bright blue and shiny metal
and it looked just like a bicycle chain. I mean, that's how clearly
I saw it. I could have read the knob because you had x-ray vision
because the wounds were that deep and that open. I mean, just
shocking. And the thing with the PRP that I saw is it works
amazing. We, we do. Um, we have some research that
Speaker 1: (20:48)
we do in our clinic with PRP and we have a PRP available at the
acute care hospital and placing that on wounds and watching them
change from week to week. And sometimes, you know, every couple of
days you're like, Oh my gosh, that has improved. Yeah. Massive
improvement. Yeah. Powerful, powerful. And so I, I think the take
home that, that I think would be the best way to end this
particular episode is this idea that far too often people think
that they're a lost cause and so they'll put off, uh, at least
investigating or exploring the possibility. And sometimes people
just resigned themselves because maybe they've tried certain
things. Maybe they've even tried some of these things before. Uh,
but I'm confident that you haven't tried what we do at our clinic
because we do a very comprehensive approach in what we do. Again,
we don't use these things as a, you know, a Hogwarts magic wand or
magic bullet, you know, type things.
Speaker 1: (21:42)
We use this as part of a whole comprehensive approach to really
helping you not only get relief, you know, in the short term, but
in the longterm, helping you function at a higher level so that we
can really address some of those root issues. Um, and, and so we're
really grateful that we have a dr [inaudible] with us as part of
our team. It's been phenomenal. She's, she's such a, uh, an
incredible asset to our team. Uh, she's easy to work with. She's,
she's got such a phenomenal bedside manner. Nurse practitioners
tend to have a really solid reputation. Um, but even in that,
amongst the peers, I think she, she's head and shoulders above in
those terms. So she's phenomenal. So for those listening and
considering, especially those people who, who are maybe local here
and they're saying, I wonder if they can help me. Uh, we always say
what we say to everybody and that is, we give a definite, maybe let
me give a definite, maybe because we don't want to make those kinds
of guarantees.
Speaker 1: (22:37)
Cause that would just be foolish to say those sorts of things. And
so what we do guarantee though is that we can find out if we can
help you when you come in. And so, uh, this is an open invitation
to people to come in and sit down with dr devel, meet her face to
face, knee to knee, whatever you want to call it. Uh, I think the
thing that I can guarantee it is I can guarantee you that you will
truly feel after speaking with her, that she's really listening to
you, which is a great thing. I think most people want that, you
know, from, from a doctor. Uh, she'll really listen to you. She'll
hear, hear you out. And she'll really, us as a team, we'll go to
work to find out if you're a candidate for, for what we do here
with some of these regenerative, um, tools, uh, as well as the rest
of what we do at our clinic.
Speaker 1: (23:21)
And then from there we can, uh, put together a plan that can help
you. So, uh, any final thoughts? Dr. Allen, dr devel. You know, I
think we kind of covered things, you know, these, these different,
I don't know that the reject, the regenerative therapy to me is
exciting because I mean, I've, I've actually experienced it myself
on a few different areas. Yeah. Am I shoulder my shoulder? And
every time I've a massive difference and a massive improvement. And
then again, on the other, the flip side of that, having worked on
people and treated people who have had to go the more drastic route
of knee surgeries or shoulder surgeries, man, I, I mean, I feel
fantastic and I'm like, ah, man, I wish I could have got ahold of
you five years ago, right, one year ago. You know what I mean?
Like, cause the potential is massive.
Speaker 1: (24:08)
So, um, it's one of those things don't, um, don't go the easy
route. The easy route is letting, trying to let someone else do
everything for you and to think that, Oh, surgery's just gonna make
it better. Or the medicine's gonna make it better. It's Jen,
Sharon's converse this. So I'll just do exactly like that is the
path of least resistance. And unfortunately when it comes to your
health, that is not the proven track record. It really is not. It's
not the best way to go. And well the problem with those things,
again and I know we're kind of to some extent beating a dead horse,
but just understand that the bill will come due later. You bet. And
in the longterm the cost is going to far outweigh any of what you
thought was beneficial from that. So any other final thoughts
there? I can only echo that.
Speaker 1: (24:56)
I have just seen it time and time again. And I guess that's why I
said earlier, I so passionately said it would be my last resort
because I have seen it and uh, you can't undo it and there is a
longterm cost that comes to you. And so it, it just behooves
anybody to just try the more conservative thing first. And if that
doesn't work, then consider start exploring, start exploring other
options. And I would say included in that is something as seemingly
simple and easy as a cortisone injection. Uh, cause even with that,
there's a huge price to be paid there. You know, the, the research
has come back. It's definitive. People understand cortisone
deteriorates tissue, it weakens the, the integrity and the
structure of muscle tissue, of, of ligament, of cartilage, of all
those different areas. And so it's, uh, it's not this simple, uh,
you know, easy process seed.
Speaker 1: (25:50)
It'll, it'll come at a, at a very, very steep price. And that's not
to say that you can't do it or that even you shouldn't do it, but
you shouldn't do it lightly. Um, cause it's, it's pretty potent
stuff. So, um, hopefully this has been really valuable for you
guys. Hopefully we've given you some really good information
regarding, uh, PRP and regenerative medicine. Some things to
consider if you know, other people that could benefit from, uh, the
information that we shared and for those local, if you know
somebody, uh, you yourself or somebody that could benefit from a
consultation with dr devel at our team, uh, just reach out to us,
uh, at our website. Uh, we're on Facebook, we're just about
everybody everywhere online and, uh, and we'd love to meet you in
person. And I know dr Vel would love to be able to find out if we
could help you. So, and Dr. Bell, again, thanks for being here with
us. We appreciate you as always and uh, we'll talk to you guys on
the next episode. Have a good one.
Speaker 2: (26:47)
Thanks for listening to the health fundamentals podcast. Be sure to
subscribe so that you stay in the loop. And in the note with all of
the cutting edge health information that we share, if you know
other people that could benefit from this information, please share
it with them as well. Also, be sure to give us a review. These
really help us to ultimately help more people. Last but not least,
if you have questions that you want answered live on the show, or
if you have ideas for topics that you would like us to cover,
please shoot us an email and let us know at
info@thehealthfundamentals.com.